WEBVTT

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Russell Gersten: I am Russell
Gersten, I am executive director

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of Instructional Research Group,
in Los Alamitos, California.

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Sharon Vaughn: Hi,
I am Sharon Vaughn.

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I am the executive director
of the Meadows Center

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for Preventing Educational
Risk and a Regents Professor

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at the University
of Texas at Austin.

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[RtI and Special Education]

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Gersten: What exactly is this
multi-tier intervention, RtI,

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and where exactly does
special education fit in?

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A couple of states have said

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that Tier 3 is special
education.

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Many states have said Tier 3
is never special education.

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There is no clear
definitive answer;

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there is no legal position
from the U.S. Department

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of Ed or any of the courts.

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We are still trying
to figure that out.

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We have tried, actually, in
the Practice Guide to indicate

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that special education can
play a role in a whole bunch

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of tiers-that part of a child's
Tier 3 intervention could

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include some time with a special
educator or a program designed

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by a special educator
but implemented

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by another person at the school.

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Vaughn: Russell, it's
conceivable that some districts

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or states might have
a three-tier system

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in which Tier 3 would be
defined as special education

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and that Tier 2 is an
increasingly intensive

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intervention provided to
students before special ed.

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And in other districts and
states, it might be four tiers,

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where the Tier 4 is
special education

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and then the Tier 3 becomes a
more intensive intervention.

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And so there can be variation

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in how these multiple
tiers are implemented,

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and that these variations
maybe within a state

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or across state depending upon
particular context and rules

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and regulations within
that district and state.

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[Implementation Challenges]

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Vaughn: So, Russell, RtI
doesn't come without challenges,

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as you well know, and so
we probably should talk

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about what some of these are.

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And the one that occurs to me
is some of the issues related

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to roles and responsibilities
of key personnel

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that were very well
defined in the pre-RtI days

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and are now being sort of
refined in the RtI days.

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An example is the special
education teacher, whose role

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and responsibility with
respect to either being

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in an inclusive setting
or in a resource room

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or in a special ed setting
was pretty well understood,

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and now within RtI, many special
education teachers are asking,

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"How does my role change?

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Am I involved in these
screenings that are schoolwide?

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Am I involved in the multiple
tiers of intervention?

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If so, is it only Tier 3 or
Tier 4 that I am involved in?"

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As we implement any new program

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in a school district-RtI
isn't the only example,

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of course-the roles
and responsibilities

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of the key stakeholders
do shift.

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Gersten: Another thing
that I find is confusion

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about what to do with math.

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In math we have some assessments
for younger students.

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Beyond that we really
lack interventions,

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intervention strategies,
and valid ways to screen.

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In math where do you start?

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Do you start at the
middle school

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because of this huge
emphasis on algebra?

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Do you start as we
did in reading

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because with younger kids you
already have a system in place,

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K-3 teachers are
familiar with it?

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Vaughn: So, in addition,
Russell, to challenges related

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to implementing math for
students that have difficulties,

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what do you think we can
do with respect to middle

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and high school and how we
implement RtI in those settings?

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The vast majority of research
and the largest numbers

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of descriptive studies
around RtI really focus

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at the elementary level.

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Gersten: It's going to play
out very, very differently.

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There is, again,
a lot of drawbacks

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that kids have many teachers,
but there are also advantages.

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The pullout idea can be tied
into a child's schedule.

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In fact, the huge issue is
that the typical thing is,

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if a child needs an intervention
in middle school or high school,

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they lose an elective, and
what we know about engagement

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of kids is sometimes it could
be the clubs and the electives

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that keep kids engaged.

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One nice advantage is that for
an initial cut at screening,

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starting in third
grade at every state,

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we have a state assessment.

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It's not perfect, but certainly
if a kid is below proficient,

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you have that sign that you
want to do something more.

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[Lessons Learned]

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Vaughn: One of the lessons
we have learned about RtI is

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that we need patience.

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RtI is not a simple idea that
can be readily implemented

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by a district

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in one professional
development in one year.

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Districts are really
going to have to think

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about how they build
from the bottom

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up an effective RtI
system slowly

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and layering these
key components.

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Gersten: It's always better
to prioritize a few areas

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and do them well and
then move into others.

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Vaughn: It strikes me that one
of the things we hope for is

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that schools can be
persistent in organizing

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and retaining those
critical principles of RtI

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that are working
and that the effort

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and professional development
it takes to building

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and sustaining a
model RtI framework

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in their schools isn't
discouraging to them

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and that they are able
to reap the rewards

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that an RtI program
can potentially yield,

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including increased performance
in regular classrooms in math

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and reading, reduced
numbers of students at risk,

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and more appropriate
and timely referral

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of students to special
education.

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[Music]